Maybe there was never any way out of the January 15 swamp.

by: Grebner

Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 14:38:24 PM EST

Half a century ago, Kenneth Arrow proved a theorem that straddles the boundary between political science and math, which has become known as Arrow’s Legislative Paradox.  Using the theorem in a sloppy and imprecise metaphor, I try to illuminate our stalemate over Michigan Democratic participation in the 2008 presidential selection process.

To summarize and simplify:  Arrow proved that it’s absolutely impossible to find a method of summing the preferences of a group of three or more people in a context where the preferences are non-scalar, without creating either unfairness or arbitrariness.  That is, unless there is a single dimension (say, higher taxes <—-> lower taxes), every possible method of voting under certain conditions will encounter deadlocks whose only solutions will be either unfair or depend on random chance.  Arrow proved that no technical solution – preferential voting, super-majorities, reliance on seniority, or anything else – can evade this paradox.

The simplest example is the classic three-people-buying-one-pie problem.  One likes Apple, is okay with Blueberry, and hates Cherry.  (“ABC” – get it?)  The second orders her preferences BCA, and the third CAB.  ABC says, “Let’s order Apple”, but there’s a 2/3 majority to change to Cherry.  And 2/3 to change to Blueberry.  Then 2/3 to revert to Apple.  It’s completely circular and perfectly symmetric. Any method that avoids this problem (say, in case of deadlocks, ABC is allowed to make the choice) will break down under a different set of circumstances.  Every reliable “solution” involves reducing the electorate to fewer than three voters (say, by weighting ABC’s vote to exceed the other two so she always wins), or forcing the choices to become scalar (by imposing rules that exclude certain orderings of preference), or introducing randomness (flipping a coin in the event of deadlock). Wikipedia has a good explanation.

I’m not sure the formal requirements of Arrow’s theorem are met, by the angry and confused squabbling over Michigan’s participation in the Democratic nomination process this year, so this is more an illustration than a rigorous application of his proof.  There are more than three positions involved, but that only makes the situation more intractable.  Even if everybody were perfectly reasonable – and they aren’t – there’s no fair method of solving the mess, because there are multiple “majorities” that want inconsistent things.

Let’s define three “tendencies”

1) “Anti-Iowa.”  These people think the most important objective is to break the primacy of Iowa and New Hampshire, and bring effective suffrage to the other 48 states. This group is headed by Debbie Dingell and Carl Levin.

2) “Anti-Farce.”  For them, the most important objective is to have a real vote, not just a choice between Hillary and Uncommitted, with no delegates at stake anyway.  Most posts on ML seem to be in this camp.

3) “Anti-Caucus.”  Most party activists aren’t sympathetic to this view, but most voters are.  They distrust small-turnout, private, party-run caucuses, and want an ordinary election.  The fact that the 2004 Caucus attracted 160,000 people, while the 1992 primary drew nearly 600,000 even though the nomination was already settled, illustrates the appeal of government-run elections.

Now the problem is that EACH of these tendencies has overwhelming support, when tested against its opposite, just as each of the pies had a 2/3 vote.  Almost everybody in Michigan agrees that we have to break the grip of Iowa and New Hampshire on the nomination process, and most of us are willing to support actions that challenge or even violate theDNC’s rules, if that’s what is needed.  But we disagree among ourselves whether it’s so important that we’re willing to lose all voice in the 2008 process to press the point.

At the same time, I don’t think anybody thinks the current arrangement is ideal, or even acceptable.  If we all had votes on the Democratic State Central Committee, it would be easy to pass a resolution abandoning the January 15 primary for February 9 caucuses – but we don’t have such a voice, and it may be too late anyway.

Finally, the great majority of Democrats would have opted for a meaningful primary over a caucus, even if that meant conforming to DNC rules.  But of course, that would mean leaving Iowa and New Hampshire enthroned, which is unacceptable to most of us. . . .

Even if we were all perfectly sincere and reasonable, and had well-written and accepted rules  – not one of which predicates is true – this would be an intractable mess.  If the issue were simply “A” or “B”, it’s not hard for any political system to choose.  But once a third choice is introduced,  each person has to make both a first choice, a second, and a third.  If different groups make different rankings, there may be no way out, except something that leaves a large majority angry and alienated.

One “solution” is to abandon democracy and turn the decision over to a dictator, which in this case would be Mark Brewer, or more precisely, the cabal that pulls his strings.  They’ve made their decisions, and nobody’s happy with it.  Arrow tells us there may never have been any way to fix it that would make most of us any happier.


Comments

46 responses to “Maybe there was never any way out of the January 15 swamp.”

  1. Violet Avatar
    Violet

    I have several responses to make
    to this thoughtful and thought-provoking diary, but I think I will put them in separate comments.
    Firstly: “If we all had votes on the Democratic State Central Committee, it would be easy to pass a resolution abandoning the January 15 primary for February 9 caucuses – but we don’t have such a voice, and it may be too late anyway.”

    I am an alternate to the DSCC, and was looking forward to the scheduled Dec. 1 meeting, and the opportunity to at least provide some feedback on this issue. That meeting was canceled, as it ‘conveniently’ conflicted with the fall DNC meeting. Was there really no way to know this in advance, or to reschedule the DSCC while there was still time? The next meeting is Feb. 23, by which time it will all be over one way or the other.

    Since I am new as an alternate to DSCC, and have not been needed to take any of our members’ proxies for this year’s meetings, it is not clear to me how much actual power the DSCC has. …I’ll let it go at that.

    by: memiller @ Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 14:43:44 PM CST

    1. Violet Avatar
      Violet

      I actually have never heard Arrow’s theorem referred to as
      “Arrow’s Legislative Paradox”, but as the Arrow Impossibility Theorem, or Arrow’s Voting Theorem. But we are talking about the same thing. I’ve seen it stated this way:
      Any constitution that respects transitivity, independence of irrelevant alternatives, and unanimity is a dictatorship, as long as there are at least 3 alternatives.

      Some additional background for our readers —

      Transitivity means if a voter prefers A to B, and B to C, they will prefer A to C.

      Independence of irrelevant alternatives means that if under the ‘social choice function’ (constitution, or voting rule) being used, a group of voters prefers A to B, a change in their relative ranking of C should not change that.

      Unanimity means that if ALL voters prefer A to B, then the voting rule should prefer A to B.

      These are all qualities that reasonable people should agree are highly desirable in a rational voting rule. (They are not the only desiderata, and that is another story).

      The theorem states that any such voting rule will be a dictatorship, not in the sense that only one person is allowed to vote, but rather that one person can be proved to be ‘pivotal’, determining the outcome by themselves under certain circumstances.

      Now, grebner has said he is using this as a metaphor, since the exact ‘voting rule’ we followed to get into this mess is, to say the least, not well-defined (to say nothing of incomprehensible, convoluted, and twisted). It could not be well-defined, involving two highly distracted houses of a dysfunctional legislature, two political parties with their own questionable decision-making procedures, a hierarchical state court system with the most partisan folks at the top (and a Federal court system … yet to weigh in??)

      Anyhow, going with the metaphor, I think that the “independence of irrelevant alternatives” is the part of Arrow’s assumptions most clearly confuted by this situation. The alternatives which should be independent are all confounded and twisted together, as grebner has pointed out.

      But I think the real problem here is quite a bit simpler than the decision-making process. Even if we were all content to leave things in the hands of Dear Leader Brewer, there is the principle that old Stones’ song talked about: “You can’t always get what you want.” You can’t have everything, and by going for everything, sometimes you end up with… well, what we have now.

      by: memiller @ Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 15:22:47 PM CST

  2. Violet Avatar
    Violet

    Good analysis of Arrow, but…
    I think this is a good explanation of Arrow’s impossibility theorom. I suppose I’m in the group of fourth, fifth or sixth set of preferences — or that I may violate one of the assumptions — in that I oppose Michigan moving its nominating process up this year, under the current set of circumstances.
    In my view, it makes no sense to decide to hold an early primary this late in the game. It’s only going to allow the participating candidates with big war chests to run non-stop commercials from now til Election Day, and disenfranchise the others.

    Alternatively, one of the virtues of having Iowa and New Hampshire as early states in the nominating process are their small populations. This allows people to base their support via town hall meetings, not commercials. As Howard Dean proved in 2004 (and several others before him), a big war chest doesn’t guarantee victory in those states. Michigan is more diverse than Iowa culturally and ethnically (although not economically), but it’s also a lot bigger. Well-financed candidates would do much better in a Michigan primary than an Iowa one.

    So, if the social preference context you work from is “fairness to Michigan” or “cultural and ethnic diversity,” then I suppose there’s a plausible argument to scrap the current primary line-up. I agree that most people fall into the three categories you outlined in either of these camps. I would add that although these are the ideas advocated by this idea’s supporters, they are more political than substantive.

    However, if the context is “most democracy possible in a Presidential race,” then I don’t think Michigan has a good argument to vote earlier in the nominating process. At least not until we get money out of politics.

    by: jrhawver @ Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 15:39:36 PM CST

    1. Violet Avatar
      Violet

      I was going to make another point
      but it’s the same point as this, so I won’t!
      (Joe, is that you? Have I seen you around here before? Mark)

      by: memiller @ Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 16:04:39 PM CST

  3. Violet Avatar
    Violet

    There are states I would consider
    far more culturally and ethnically diverse than Michigan… I want to scrap the whole line-up, but I’m not sure that I’d include Michigan in the top… California, on the other hand..

    Hillary speaks for me.
    by: XavierLA @ Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 17:48:02 PM CST

  4. Violet Avatar
    Violet

    Dean’s problem was one of organization
    He had Kerry precinct captains down as supporters.. Once his camp identified a supporter, they did very little follow-up — and Iowa voters want repeated contact with the campaigns… They want to make sure you’re still involved, so Dean may have met them in June or July and they liked the guy, but when they hadn’t heard from him in the fall, they ditched him.

    Hillary speaks for me.
    by: XavierLA @ Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 17:49:48 PM CST

  5. Violet Avatar
    Violet

    I think MI had to take a stand
    if something was ever going to get done… Not sure how things will look in 2012 or 2016, but certainly we will be seeing a change in the way the Party nominates. Hopefully we’ll also see movement towards public financing of elections. I love the idea of giving smaller campaigns the chance to get their message out, because it pushes a competing narrative and (even if slightly) alters the narratives espoused by those who will ultimately become the nominee.

    Hillary speaks for me.
    by: XavierLA @ Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 17:55:27 PM CST

  6. Violet Avatar
    Violet

    Have you read the Herman/Price Commission Report?
    You apparently have not, or you would not have written:
    “I think MI had to take a stand if something was ever going to get done”
    and then followed it up with:

    I love the idea of giving smaller campaigns the chance to get their message out, because it pushes a competing narrative and (even if slightly) alters the narratives espoused by those who will ultimately become the nominee.
    The Herman/Price report recommended, and the DNC ultimately adopted, the February 5 “prewindow” period because of the concern about the increasing tendency towards the front-loading of the delegate selection process. From the report:

    The continued front-loading of the nominating process has been steady and inexorable. Not only has the
    process started ever earlier; it has also concluded ever earlier; as increasing percentages of delegates are
    effectively selected earlier in the process. As noted above, the Hunt Commission found that in 1972, 17% of the delegates had been allocated (bound to a presidential candidate) by mid-April, while in 1976 the comparable percentage was 33% and in 1980, 44%. In 1984, by the end of the first week after the window opened, 40.3% of the delegates had been allocated and by mid-April, 57.4% had been allocated.
    In 1992, by the end of the second Tuesday of the window (March 10), 40% of the delegates had been allocated and almost exactly half had been allocated by the end of March. In 1996, by the second Tuesday of the window (March 12), 54% of the pledged delegates had been allocated. In 2000, by the
    second Tuesday (March 14) 66.67%, two-thirds, of the delegates had been allocated. In 2004, with the regular window opening earlier, by the second Tuesday in March (March 9), 71.4 % of the delegates had been allocated.

    Commission members and presenters from virtually all sides of the calendar issue expressed serious concerns about the front-loading trend. In this regard, representatives of Michigan and other states were joined by party leaders from Iowa and New Hampshire. Most of the presenters echoed these concerns. Dr. Mann and Dr. Walters both emphasized that broader participation in the process was limited by front-loading. Mr. Gans, the League of Women Voters and others made the same point.

    Front-loading, as William Mayer and Andrew Busch argue, “greatly accelerates the voters’ decision process and thus makes the whole system less deliberative, less rational, less flexible, and more chaotic…. Voters are forced to reach a final decision about their party’s next presidential nominee in a remarkably short period of time…. Equally important, front-loading makes it all but impossible for the voters to reconsider their initial judgment if new information becomes available.”

    Michigan, by jumping to 1/15 is doing nothing to fix the system-as you so shallowly write-by engaging in “self help” front-loading. And, if you love the idea of smaller campaigns getting their message out so as to create a competing narrative, then you would:

    1. Agree with the evils of front-loading as described in this snippet of the Report; and

    2. Condemn Michigan for undertaking an action that weakens the National Party’s efforts to combat front loading.

    Apparently, your love for HC has overwhelmed your ability to engage in any type of rational analysis, and leads you to write two completely dissonant sentences in a single paragraph.

    by: greee @ Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 19:42:59 PM CST

  7. Violet Avatar
    Violet

    What if you’re all three?
    I’m anti-caucus, anti-Iowa to an extent, and I am anti-farce in the sense that I was disappointed to learn that Edwards, Obama, et. al. decided to win some political points with IA voters by taking their names off the ballot in Michigan. Though, I guess my anti-farce is really connected to my anti-Iowa, though…

    Hillary speaks for me.
    by: XavierLA @ Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 17:44:52 PM CST

  8. Violet Avatar
    Violet

    I think we need to restate what has happened thus far:
    Our party leadership has managed to find a “solution” that deprives us of (tendency #2:) the right to choose among the candidates, top-tier or otherwise, (tendency #3:) whether by election or caucus, (tendency #1:) whether before Iowa-NewHampshire or after.
    In other words, the “leadership” has not made a flawed choice favoring 1 or 2 of the alternative “tendencies,” but has managed to fail on all three counts. Arguably, it is the task of “leadership” to broker decisions that can transcend the paradox, or at least to negotiate a “half-a -loaf” solution and move on. In this instance, they have, thus far, failed more miserably than their detractors could ever have hoped for. These people can’t negotiate their way out of a paper bag.

    YES, there was a way out of the January 15 swamp – ANY way that would have salvaged at least one of the three “tendencies.” Perhaps, once they realized the Iowa-NewHampshires were going to prevail, they could have adopted a February 9 (or later) primary with all candidates listed. In the meantime, they should have been working with the other large states to push through a resolution at the 2008 convention to force a change in the system starting in 2012. This is the way previous major changes (1932: to change the 2/3s rule in 1936; 1968: to abolish the unit rule starting in 1972; 1968: to set in motion the McGovern-Fraser reforms for 1972) have happened.

    by: gregsullmich @ Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 17:59:56 PM CST

    1. Violet Avatar
      Violet

      Nice theory, little reality
      You can have some of all three desired “tendencies”, actually:
      A. A primary is still possible, but one that’s

      FEBRUARY 5 OR AFTER.

      There’s no gunman/woman preventing the legislature from enacting this;

      B. Anti-farce can be done by getting rid of the 1/15 primary, which should help force the creation of the February nominating event listed in “A”;

      C. The “displace Iowa/NH” thing has not succeeded, but Nevada and South Carolina are moving up closer to those two states, so a solution is in process; it’s not like Howard Dean and the DNC don’t care about the issue.

      However, the MDP pushed itself in front of Nevada and SC, which shows how much the MDP bigwigs really care about “diversity” and “rotating states”, i.e., a lot less than they claim to care.
      So a solution to the Iowa/NH issue may have to wait 4 years to be effective: “too bad”.

      An optimum solution at this point, then, would

      1. destroy the 1/15 primary (and the voter list graft that primary would effect),
      2. put Michigan in a strong position to request more reform in 2012 (and MI is in a weak position now due to its rulebreaking),
      3. seek a February 2008 primary but accept a February caucus this time if a February primary is impossible at short notice. There can be many February primaries in future years, though.

      Timely federal court suits could help produce all these parts of the solution, and satisfy all 3 “tendencies” Grebner mentions. Any takers?

      by: David Boyle @ Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 18:47:36 PM CST

      1. Violet Avatar
        Violet

        Also a reality:
        Four of the strongest candidates took themselves off the Dem ballot. Even if the legislature can pull a 2/5/08 primary out of their hats (doubtful), what kind of organization can the candidates pull together in a 6 week time frame? Will they even bother?
        by: kelster @ Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 19:28:37 PM CST

        1. Violet Avatar
          Violet

          Blame?
          Right, because heaven forbid we should blame who is really at fault here:
          1. The Candidates for taking their names off the ballot.
          2. The Candidates (again) for refusing to campaign here.
          3. The DNC for its SELECTIVE enforcement of the “rules” (i.e. Michigan gets penalized but not New Hampshire).

          You’d have to be deliberately stupid to blame all of this on the MDP!

          “It’s 7 houses, McMansion.”

          by: yvette248 @ Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 22:11:51 PM CST

    2. Violet Avatar
      Violet

      There’s an even bigger problem
      with the analysis…
      Option Two, the “anti-farce” option was never really on the ballot as it represents the rank and file Democratic activists…

      Individuals who are not part of the decision making process.

      Also left out was the status quo, the option most likely to stand because of the problems inherent in Arrow’s theorem.

      Oh, and the fact that most political science theory has found that Arrow’s theorem has been show to falter when you consider that reality more likely has options within “bounded rationality,” which is perhaps a much better explanation of what occurred than the one offered by Mr. Grebner.

      by: Nazgul35 @ Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 22:05:52 PM CST

      1. Violet Avatar
        Violet

        The actual reason the MDP is apparently
        still bent on doing what they’re doing isn’t any of the 3 anti factions Grebner mentions, it’s the pro-Hillary faction.
        All the rest is bunk.

        Stop Playing Chicken with My Right to Vote! 9 February Caucus Now.

        West Michigan Rising: The Progressive Blog for Our (future) Left Coast

        by: philgoblue @ Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 10:26:31 AM CST

  9. Violet Avatar
    Violet

    My question to many here
    Who is the highest ranking Dem in this state? Hint: It ain’t Brewer.
    I realize I am committing a great heresy here but let us look to who really holds the party power in this state. An interestingly timed endorsement of a certain presidential candidate should help you to identify the real power behind this push.

    Just my .0125 worth–

    Julie

    To prepare for when your life flashes before your eyes, make sure it’s fun to watch.

    by: JNelson @ Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 09:20:01 AM CST

  10. Violet Avatar
    Violet

    Bonior Has An Answer
    “This is the doing of the governor and Senator Levin and others who have really taken away that opportunity for the people of Michigan to have a real choice. This was an attempt basically by the Clinton people in Michigan to take away what was a caucus of longstanding in the state. They thought it would be to their advantage to do this because they had the money and the celebrity and the power at that time.”
    http://michiganforedwards.blog

    While the attempt to break the rules and push our way to the front started with good, if misguided intentions, the reason we haven’t gone back to a DNC-sanctioned caucus after having all of our delegates stripped by the DNC is because Granholm has more loyalty to Hillary Clinton than she does to Michigan Democrats and indeed democracy in Michigan.

    West Michigan Rising: The Progressive Blog for Our (future) Left Coast

    by: philgoblue @ Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 10:24:17 AM CST

  11. Violet Avatar
    Violet

    Bonior
    Michigan Liberal readers should know that Bonior is Edward’s campaign chairman in Michigan. He ran against Jennifer Granholm for Governor in 2002, placing a distant third in a three way race similar to the position of his Presidential candidate in this election. The other two candidates in that race, Granholm and Blanchard have endorsed Granholm.
    by: northernlib @ Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 14:42:34 PM CST

  12. Violet Avatar
    Violet

    It’s not too late
    The MDP can still change their mind by 1 December, and good even do so on 16 January.
    I’ve confirmed that the County Parties have not been told to release their reservations at caucus sites for 9 February.

    West Michigan Rising: The Progressive Blog for Our (future) Left Coast

    by: philgoblue @ Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 10:28:07 AM CST

  13. Violet Avatar
    Violet

    Does anyone have a second choice?
    I am curious to know what anyone thinks about where supporters will break if their first choice drops out of the race early. Between Clinton, Obama and Edwards, I don’t think all three will be viable after New Hampshire. Any thoughts on this?
    Early disclaimer: I’m honestly not trying to offend anyone by suggesting that her/his first choice won’t make it. Obviously, only one candidate will prevail. But where do Clinton supporters go, or Obama folks or Edwards folks?

    by: IgnatiusDonnelly @ Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 13:12:00 PM CST

  14. Violet Avatar
    Violet

    Probably not to Clinton
    I don’t see a whole lot of support going Clinton’s way. She could get some of Richardson’s; maybe Dodd’s and Biden’s.
    I don’t see her or Obama dropping out very early. If Edward’s drops I’m not sure where his supporters go but would lean toward thinking they go more toward Obama.

    The end of the human race will be that it will eventually die of civilization.

    – Ralph Waldo Emerson

    by: michmark @ Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 13:46:25 PM CST

  15. Violet Avatar
    Violet

    Dropping Out
    I agree with Mark, most of Edwards supporters will go to Obama. If we reach a point where either Obama or Clinton drop out, it means the other has sewn up the nomination. Kucinich will likely stay until the end, but if he drops out, his people will also go to Obama. Dodd’s people will likely go to Clinton and Biden’s people will split between Obama and Clinton.
    Obama has three “must wins” in order to compete. He needs to win Iowa first and then immediately come back and win New Hampshire. Because Clinton will almost surely take Nevada, Florida and Michigan, Obama will also need to win South Carolina to keep his momentum going into Super Tuesday. If he can win all three of those states, he has a real shot at winning the nomination and deservedly so. But not winning even one of those three will make the task of winning the nomination almost impossible for him.

    The amusing irony is that the most rabid anti-Clinton people are the Edwards supporters but the best shot at having someone other than Clinton become the nominee is to have Edwards drop out prior to Iowa.

    by: northernlib @ Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 14:52:50 PM CST

    1. Violet Avatar
      Violet

      I tend to think Edwards folks go to Clinton (0.00 / 0)
      It probably depends on the kind of Edwards supporter a person is, but I tend to think labor folks will go with Clinton over Obama. Nothing against Obama, I just think that labor folks tend to be a bit more practical, and I don’t see Obama saying anything specific to labor. I think if Edwards gets out, there is no way for Obama to stay in it for long.
      by: IgnatiusDonnelly @ Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 15:10:36 PM CST

  16. Violet Avatar
    Violet

    Edward’s Michigan supporters
    Ignatius, you make a strong argument and you may be right but you wouldn’t know it from reading the rantings of Edwards’ supporters in the blogosphere.
    by: northernlib @ Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 15:35:21 PM CST

  17. Violet Avatar
    Violet

    What’s with the Edwards Sig?
    Northernlib, what happened to your signature? Before it was all Hillary all the time. Now you’re for Edwards?
    Did Bill Clinton’s Charlie Rose interview turn you off? 😉

    “it was better before before they voted for whats his name…” ~ X

    by: rich @ Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 17:35:15 PM CST

    1. Violet Avatar
      Violet

      Volunteering for Edwards
      I’m not for Edwards becoming the nominee, I’m for Edwards outperforming his polling in Iowa and New Hampshire. And the guy deserves some help. He’s been working Iowa for over two years and deserves better than third place. And I think he’s the only candidate Newsweek hasn’t put on its cover over the past couple months. I don’t think he is being treated fairly by the media who have ignored him in the effort to create a Clinton and Obama horse race. Did you know he won the very valuable endorsement of Iowa’s first lady? It’s all available at: http://michiganforedwards.blog… including the prediction by Edwards’ people that Obama will come in fourth in Iowa!
      by: northernlib @ Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 18:21:01 PM CST

  18. Violet Avatar
    Violet

    I’d wager you take a lot less heat
    for little swipes at Edwards/Edwards supporter (like the subtle one up-thread) while sporting a pro-Edwards sig-line.
    I appreciate the strategy. I tend to dress somewhat conservatively and my friends often laugh and comment that I “look like a Republican”. I smile and tell them it is easier to mix with the enemy that way. 😉

    Julie

    To prepare for when your life flashes before your eyes, make sure it’s fun to watch.

    by: JNelson @ Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 19:44:04 PM CST

    1. Violet Avatar
      Violet

      Edwards was on the cover of NEWSWEEK this week
      For what it’s worth.

      “I never did give anybody hell. I just told the truth and they thought it was hell.” — Harry S Truman
      by: Butch Snider @ Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 18:08:53 PM CST

      1. Violet Avatar
        Violet

        The Sleeper
        Yes, a very good article about how Edwards might win Iowa. Ignore the rumors that Hillary signed off on the article. Phil has been right all along. Edwards, not Obama is the alternative to Hillary people should flock to. Time to warm up the bus.
        by: northernlib @ Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 19:14:51 PM CST

  19. Violet Avatar
    Violet

    If Edwards performs better
    Obama can’t evolve as the clear anti-Hillary candidate…
    Hence, it is in the interest of Hillary supporters that Edwards do well in Iowa to take the steam away from Obama, who is starting to make a move on Hillary in the first four (the one’s that count anyway) primaries.

    by: Nazgul35 @ Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 13:02:29 PM CST

  20. Violet Avatar
    Violet

    We Heart John Edwards
    Exactly why Edwards (and Hillary) needs you, Phil and other Edwards supporters to put in that extra effort over the next few weeks. I knew that sooner or later we’d all come around to working with each other rather than against each other, although it admittedly was in a different context and a bit earlier than what I expected. An Attorney General position would be a great fit for Edwards but the word on the street is that a first choice (primary choice if you will) has already been selected. Maybe Edwards could become Poverty Czar.
    by: northernlib @ Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 13:48:53 PM CST

    1. Violet Avatar
      Violet

      Edwards for Michigan
      By the way, while it’s still relevant, I’d like to commend Phil and Greee for their valiant efforts on behalf of John Edwards in Michigan in attempting to overcome lackluster support from Michigan labor and the resistance they’ve met from Michigan Democrats and from even Edwards himself (withdrawing from Michigan). I’ve even contacted the New Hampshire Democratic Party demanding that they drop their January primary and hold a February 9 caucus instead.
      by: northernlib @ Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 13:59:17 PM CST

  21. Violet Avatar
    Violet

    LOL
    So you’re pro-Edwards to benefit Hillary. You’re a funny one.
    Campaigns always get ugly when candidates get desperate. I have to say though, that if Hillary and Bill keep up the racial, Muslim and madrassa smears of Obama, and Hillary wins the nomination, I might have to simply not vote for a Presidential candidate. That the Clintons will stoop to smearing Obama this way, a black man, is shameless and hypocritical. (Toni Morrison might have to think about taking back her characterization of Bill as the “First Black President.”) There is nothing progressive or liberal about a candidate or her husband who would stoop to these kinds of attacks. And a Feminist sure as hell wouldn’t try to do it this way either. Makes me wonder if she should be running for the Republican nomination, instead, given they’re the race-baiting party of Muslim paranoia.

    Hillary and Bill’s actions are already going to cost them the black vote in South Carolina. There are a number of African-American bloggers who are up in arms over the Clintons’ actions these past few weeks. As one said today,

    I don’t care if Obama wins, as long as this campaign knocks liberals off their pedestal with regards to race. After 50 years of taking the black vote for granted, the frontrunner in the Democratic Party responds to its first viable black candidate for president by doing everything it can to smear him as a cultural and ethnic “other” while decrying Republican intolerance.
    I’d love to see a woman President, but Hillary is making it difficult to earn my vote for her to be the first one.

    “it was better before before they voted for whats his name…” ~ X

    by: rich @ Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 14:39:07 PM CST

    1. Violet Avatar
      Violet

      Love Child Scandal
      You write, “campaigns always get ugly when candidates get desperate”. A great example would be the John Edward’s love child scandal Obama operatives are trying to float to force Edwards out of the race. Wanna bet they’ll try to blame Hillary? To get to the source of this, ask yourself who has the most to blame from discrediting poor John Edwards.
      by: northernlib @ Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 19:34:11 PM CST

      1. Violet Avatar
        Violet

        Not Excusing This
        So far, nothing I’ve found links the unsubstantiated Edwards Love Child rumor to the Obama campaign. In fact, your comment here was the first I’d even heard of it. But then I don’t read the National Enquirer. Roger Altman, one of the owners of the Enquirer is a Clinton backer.
        I’d forgotten about the mistress-rumors. Obama’s people must not be all that adept at getting these rumors up into the MSM. Or the MSM must think/know the rumors are ridiculous. If Edwards were to be wounded by any kind of scandal right now, yes, Obama would most likely benefit.

        But Hillary’s race-baiting and smearing have gotten plenty of play in the MSM. Face it, they’re all slimy, but the Clinton’s are the slimiest.

        “it was better before before they voted for whats his name…” ~ X

        by: rich @ Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 20:27:43 PM CST

        1. Violet Avatar
          Violet

          Blame
          Rich writes, “Roger Altman, one of the owners of the Enquirer is a Clinton backer.” And there he goes, as predicted, trying to blame this Edwards Love Child on Clinton. Pure slime, trying to portray Hillary as the classic “bitch” to degrade her as a female candidate. Neither Bill nor Hillary Clinton have engaged in any type of race baiting and you know perfectly well they haven’t. You’re making these allegation counting on Michigan Liberal readers to not follow up on the posts you include which don’t support your claims. I see Edwards has pulled ahead of both Clinton and Obama in Iowa. That should surprise no one.

          by: northernlib @ Wed Dec 19, 2007 at 07:37:53 AM CST

          1. Violet Avatar
            Violet

            Right
            This is becoming the typical response when evidence is brought to light that Hillary Clinton engages in slimy politicking, that I as a man must think she’s a “bitch” and that I’m the slimy one. I call bull****.
            Sorry, but it’s a fact that the Muslim emails came out of her campaign in Iowa.

            It’s a fact that Shaheen, a Clinton campaign worker, suggested someone should ask Obama if he sold drugs. The clear implication being that whites might do drugs, but it’s blacks who sell them.

            It’s a fact that Bob Kerrey in his speech endorsing Hillary Clinton said Obama attended a secular madrasa, nevermind that by definition a madrasa is a religious school, and that Obama NEVER attended a madrasa. (It also implies that by attending a madrasa, he must be a fervent Muslim like those “terrorists,” thereby denigrating Obama and Muslims, too. As if attending a madrasa is inherently a bad thing. Niiiice.) You know that Clinton’s people must have had a hand in Kerrey’s speech.

            It’s a fact that one of the National Enquirer’s owners is a backer of Hillary Clinton. You can draw your own conclusions when they run a story smearing John Edwards, regardless of who it benefits. You didn’t deny the fact, now did you? You’re just denying the conclusion I’m making.

            Don’t take my word for it that the Clinton campaign is race-baiting. Take the word of African-American bloggers that I linked to up in my previous comments.

            It’s as if you believe because she’s a woman, that somehow makes it impossible for her and her campaign to engage in these kinds of attacks. Look, the Clintons got smeared way too much in the 90’s by the Right-Wing noise machine. ($45 million to investigate a land deal gone bad and a failed S&L; that ended up about a Monica Lewinsky. A waste of taxpayer time and money.) You’d think the Clintons would be better than that kind of garbage. But clearly, they are not. And you don’t help your candidate’s cause by denying her responsibility for the horrid smears coming out of her campaign. You’re entitled to your own opinions. But you’re not entitled to your own facts. I’m not “trying to link” anything. The links are already there.

            Are you suggesting that Bill and Hillary aren’t in control of her campaign? That all of these things are spontaneous and not of their doing? If that’s the case, then that disqualifies her to be President, because it shows she can’t control the people who work for her. If it’s not (and I’m sure this is the case), then it shows just how low they are willing to go to knock down the first viable black candidate for President of the U.S. As I said before, no self-respecting liberal, progressive, or feminist would use these race-baiting Muslim-smearing tactics against a black person.

            “it was better before before they voted for whats his name…” ~ X

            by: rich @ Wed Dec 19, 2007 at 08:14:27 AM CST

  22. Violet Avatar
    Violet

    Gender-baiting
    When men get caught saying slimy things about their opponents (and believe me, they do), they are not called “bastards” or anything else that degrades their gender.
    I don’t wanna hear a bunch of old, white men decrying Hillary for race-baiting as long as they continue the tactless, appalling and offensive smear campaign against Hillary based on her gender.

    If anything , the constant, snide remarks about her “cackling, wearing revealing clothes, not being able to ‘keep her man’ and being called a ‘bitch’ could very well backfire and cause women to come out in droves to support Clinton’s campaign.

    Stop the gender-baiting!

    “It’s 7 houses, McMansion.”

    by: yvette248 @ Wed Dec 19, 2007 at 08:48:52 AM CST

    1. Violet Avatar
      Violet

      Tweety Bird
      Like Tweety-Bird did the other day? Here he calls Hillary’s supporters…see for yourself. Yes, Hillary has had to put up with a lot of misogyny and, unfortunately, it looks like it’s going to continue.

      “it was better before before they voted for whats his name…” ~ X
      by: rich @ Wed Dec 19, 2007 at 10:07:29 AM CST

      1. Violet Avatar
        Violet

        Tone
        One thing I’ve noticed about all these attacks, you know the Hillary is a slimy hag, Obama is a Muslim coke dealer, Edwards is an effeminate philanderer garbage is that they have all started on conservative blogs and places like Drudge, FoxNews, and Limbaugh. As the race tightens up, I get the feeling that all three campaigns are being played by the right-wing. Rich, let’s agree to do each other a favor and not help spread this fascist garbage on our blog. We can do a better job cleaning up our language for the benefit of all progressives over the next few weeks.
        by: northernlib @ Wed Dec 19, 2007 at 09:04:10 AM CST

        1. Violet Avatar
          Violet

          Debate in the Black Community
          Rich, what you are citing on this blog is one half of an increasingly vibrant debate among Black Americans about whether Clinton or Obama is the better choice for their communities. As you might expect, the tone of that debate is growing more heated as we enter the final weeks. It doesn’t mean most Black Americans or even a significant minority actually believe the Clintons are rascist. In fact, Obama has taken far far more heat on this issue than Clinton has over the past year as many Black Americans take issue with the idea of someone who isn’t a descendent of slaves being the first Black President. These types of debates are occuring throughout American, among LBGT people, Hispanics, labor, seniors groups, Muslims, etc. We shouldn’t be using one side of those debates on this blog in the attempt to claim a certain candidate is somehow rascist, anti-Muslim etc. Let’s save that for people like Giuliani and his “Muslim terrorist” crap. Peace among liberals.
          by: northernlib @ Wed Dec 19, 2007 at 09:22:43 AM CST

          1. Violet Avatar
            Violet

            If you think it’s nasty now
            see what happens from the Clinton camp if she comes in third in Iowa…
            I think it speaks volumes about her when you see what the people around her are willing to do to win…and what they do in private practice.

            Go look at the people each candidate surrounds themselves with…that should give you a good indication of the type of Administration they will have.

            PS: Kudos to both Obama and Hillary for showing such dramatic spine in supporting Dodd’s attempts to preserve the rule of law but not showing up to work.

            Gives me chills thinking about how strong a President they will be…

            NOT!

            by: Nazgul35 @ Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 19:38:28 PM CST

  23. Violet Avatar
    Violet

    Dodd
    As if Bush is going to sign a FISA bill WITHOUT telecom immunity. Given the missing spines Pelosi and Reid have displayed so far this year, they’re not willing to fight Bush on this anyway. Dodd got a temporary boost for an honest stand. But as a practical matter, I don’t see this going anywhere because Reid and Pelosi aren’t willing to fight Bush on a whole lot other than Water and SCHIP.

    “it was better before before they voted for whats his name…” ~ X
    by: rich @ Tue Dec 18, 2007 at 20:32:26 PM CST

    1. Violet Avatar
      Violet

      Honesty
      Rich, did you even bother to read the articles you linked to or are you just relying on people to take you at your word and not look into the attacks you are making on Hillary Clinton? There was absolutely no racial context to the first article, and neither Bill Clinton nor Hillary Clinton have made any negetive comments about Barak Obama’s race and have defended him against the false right wing anti-Muslim attacks, even to the point of promptly disassociating the her campaign from some low-level volunteer (not paid staffer) who repeated something she had likely seen in the conservative media.
      It’s time to get off the “Hillary Clinton is a divisive bitch” bandwagon and start to examine her and Barak Obama on the issues. As a non-white woman, I get very weary of people who keep trying to inject racial and gender politics into this race ignoring what really matters. I can assure you, if Hillary Clinton ever made a real racial attack on Barak Obama, Black Earl and I would be jumping all over her on this blog without mercy. Please cut out the bullshit. Michigan Liberal readers don’t need to be subjected to that type of trash politics.

      by: northernlib @ Wed Dec 19, 2007 at 07:53:01 AM CST

      1. Violet Avatar
        Violet

        Surrogates
        She doesn’t have to make the attack herself. She would never do it herself. She’s a brilliant person.
        Her people do it. There’s an outcry. She fires them. But the smear is out there. And then Mark Penn goes on TV and keeps blabbing on about Obama using cocaine, inorder to keep the smear out in the public.

        Did you even read through all the links? Do I have to go back and put those entire posts here? If you want, I’ll do that, so that other readers can see for themselves.

        If you think Michigan Liberal readers shouldn’t be subjected to trash politics, then maybe you should change your signature back to Go Hillary. Afterall, you acknowledged that your support for Edwards isn’t genuine. You only support him inasmuch as it will help Hillary.

        “it was better before before they voted for whats his name…” ~ X

        by: rich @ Wed Dec 19, 2007 at 08:22:41 AM CST

        1. Violet Avatar
          Violet

          Signature
          I’ll change it back if Phil asks me to. At present, it’s my way of making peace with the Edward’s supporters as we head into these last few weeks.
          by: northernlib @ Wed Dec 19, 2007 at 09:06:45 AM CST

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *