Re-districting initiative petition surfaces

by: Grebner

Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 03:36:38 AM EDT

I received a call today from a friend in the media, who asked me what I knew about a petition that’s supposedly being circulated, to amend the state constitution and completely change the process by which legislative districts are drawn, among other things.  I told him I didn’t have a clue.

From the text of the petition, which was provided to him by a Republican operative, it appears to be designed to be placed on the ballot this November, which means it would have to be circulated and turned in by July 7. 

The slant is very clearly pro-Democratic, and includes a bizarre provision to eliminate two seats on the Supreme Court – and designates Bob Young and Steve Markman to be turned out of office.

I really have no clue what’s going on, but I bet some of our readers could enlighten us, if they choose to. 

UPDATE, 6-12-08: MIRS reports that the MDP and Byrum-Fisk are pushing it. 

Collecting the number of signatures required in such a short period will require paying a VERY high rate per name, and the margin needed to cover bad signatures and duplicates will push the total needed to 600,000+.  If they don’t have the money, it’s all irrelevant.  Do they?

The petition is headed, “A proposal to amend the Michigan Constitution…. If adopted this proposal will amend the Michigan constitution to rollback elected officials’ salaries; require disclosure of income and assets; streamline the state legislature by reducing the Senate from 38 to 28 members and the House from 110 to 82; limit elected officials’ retirement benefits to the same as state employees; cut two state departments and cap the number of boards and commissions; downsize Appelate Courts and add 10 local judges; make the Elections Division independent of partisanship and ban elected officials from campaigning in elections they oversee; allow no reason absentee voting; require post election audtis of procedures and mandate voting systems paper trail; establish a nonpartisan redistricting commission. …”

I’ve got a million questions, and only a few guesses at answers.  First, is this serious?  From the care that appears to have gone into the drafting, it certainly looks like it is.  I’d guess the legal fees ran well into five figures – the entire proposal is about eight pages of fine print.

Second, is there a real plan to collect the signatures in the next 30 days?  Here, I have no clue; maybe this is an idea that was explored and never implemented.  But how it come into the hands of the Republicans?  And are they correct in claiming it’s being actively circulated?

Third, is there a real chance of collecting the 380,000 valid signatures required?  That’s a HUGE number – 60,000 more than the rightwingers needed in 2006 for their “Stop Over Spending” petition, which was eventually disqualifed even though they turned in 504,000 names.  This petition, if it has similar numbers of invalid and duplicated names, would need to submit OVER 600,000 signatures – in less than 30 days.   I can’t see how it could be done for less than $2 million – do they have a sponsor good for that much money?  I can’t imagine it, but maybe that just shows I lack imagination. 

Finally, if it makes the ballot, what would the voters do?  That’s a very hard question.  My guess – based solely on reading the petition – is that it would start with very strong public support, because it throws in every feel-good “reform” imaginable: cut officials’ salaries, reduce the size of various bodies, require higher ethical standards, and so on.  But there would be a huge backlash, as the Republican Party reacts and circles its wagons.  Eliminating Cliff Taylor’s allies may be a little too cute, and I’m sure there are lots of other buried nuggets which could be turned into public issues.  I suppose I think it would be likely to pass, with a very strong partisan divide, and the independents tending to support it as causing “a pox on both your houses”.

If it’s all a hoax, it’s a well-drafted one.

[Edited with details poached from MIRS 6-11-08.]


Comments

22 responses to “Re-districting initiative petition surfaces”

  1. Violet Avatar
    Violet

    Circulating in East Lansing
    I saw some petition circulators in East Lansing during the Art Festival with a petition that said that same thing, or at least a similar measure.
    I’m unfamiliar with such a procedure, but doesn’t the language have to be approved before signatures can be collected? If so a record should exist.

    by: Philip.R.Moon @ Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 05:07:57 AM CDT

    1. Violet Avatar
      Violet

      Circulating in Lansing too
      My wife and I saw two different circulators of this petition on two different days on Washington Avenue in downtown Lansing last week. Although we signed it, we probably wouldn’t vote for it as it contained too many reductions, which would also make it confusing to too many voters.

      “I never did give anybody hell. I just told the truth and they thought it was hell.” — Harry S Truman
      by: Butch Snider @ Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 21:25:35 PM CDT

  2. Violet Avatar
    Violet

    My Understanding
    My understanding (which might not be worth the electrons it’s printed on) is that such advance approval is a good idea — it can spot problems with the petition language and such — but not an absolute requirement.
    by: boehmianrhapsody @ Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 06:04:54 AM CDT

  3. Violet Avatar
    Violet

    Sounds Like a Wish List;
    Reads like a laundry list. It would take circulators 30 days just to explain the ramifications of every provision. How could a voter make an educated decision to be for or against the entire package?
    Some provisions I just don’t understand: “ban elected officials from campaigning in elections they oversee” — would that mean County Clerks can’t campaign at all?

    Maybe I’ll see one at my Party meeting tonight and get us some more info.

    Walk a mile in the other guy’s shoes. That way, you’re a mile away from him; plus, you have his shoes.

    by: lakeshoremmm @ Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 07:04:22 AM CDT

  4. Violet Avatar
    Violet

    Voters making an educated decision
    good one!
    >:>

    As to the campaigning, I think it means that the Secretary of State can’t be the co-chair of their party’s presidential candidate (a la Kathryn Harris)…

    by: Nazgul35 @ Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 10:57:11 AM CDT
    [ Parent ]
    I think… (4.00 / 1)
    I think this just means that a Township clerk’s election would fall under the jurisdiction of the county…etc.

    by: spontoni @ Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 15:44:40 PM CDT

  5. Violet Avatar
    Violet

    Interesting
    Now that it seems pretty certain it’s Dems who will drawing the lines this time around suddenly there’s a push to change the re-districting rules.
    Julie

    To prepare for when your life flashes before your eyes, make sure it’s fun to watch.

    by: JNelson @ Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 07:14:20 AM CDT

    1. Violet Avatar
      Violet

      Yes, but I think the MDP is at the bottom of this.
      If Mark Brewer isn’t involved, I’ll be surprised. The attempt to eliminate Cliff Taylor’s majority on the Supreme Court, via the initiative process, just FEELS like Brewer. So – I think – when we meet this conspiracy, it will turn out to be US.
      But do they really have $2 million? Have they (as Phillip suggests) been circulating this thing for a while with NOBODY knowing? The mathematics of collecting such a huge number of signatures is daunting – can it really be done?

      Stay tuned. . . .

      by: Grebner @ Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 08:18:39 AM CDT

  6. Violet Avatar
    Violet

    A little bit of something
    The redistricting initiative was being circulated in a petition as far back as two months ago – definitely by someone in democratic circles is all I will admit to.
    However, I would say that the communication you received is more like a trial balloon to gauge voter sentiment on the issue than anything else. There is no real possibility of getting this thing on November’s ballot.

    “It’s 7 houses, McMansion.”

    by: yvette248 @ Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 09:17:50 AM CDT

  7. Violet Avatar
    Violet

    I could actually support ONE provision here
    I like the shrinking of the house/senate, and could support that, but the courts provision is beyond a dealbreaker where I’ll be calling the leadership against this amendment in hopes to defeat it.
    The redistricting reform I am sympathetic to, but I do not trust comissioners. That reform will lead to a bunch of incumbent protections. In that case I expect the McCotter seat to get thrown back to Lynn Rivers with the rest of the incumbents all strengthened. It doesn’t rock the boat.

    Doesn’t matter anyway, since the courts are a dealbreaker with me. Markman, Taylor and Young! Oh my!

    “He who would trade liberty for some temporary security, deserves neither liberty nor security” – Benjamin Franklin

    by: Republican Michigander @ Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 11:02:13 AM CDT

  8. Violet Avatar
    Violet

    Is Congressional redistricting part of the deal?
    Seems a waste, since it would have to happen again when Michigan drops to 14 seats after the 2010 Census.
    But I totally agree that McCotter — a short-tempered pseudointellectual who only has a job because of the District maps he helped redraw as a State Senator in 2001 — should be the one to suffer if and when they get re-redrawn.

    by: helzapoppn @ Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 11:54:18 AM CDT

  9. Violet Avatar
    Violet

    I didn’t see anything about Congressional districting.
    Of course, it’s eight pages of tiny type, so I might have missed it. It’s full of weird twists. For one, it would require new districts be draw for the 2010 election, based on 28 and 82 members, which would be in effect only for that year, replaced after the 2010 Census information becomes available.
    For another, it would establish a method of calculating “party baseline” and then requires that the legislative districts be perfectly balance, with 14 Senate districts being 50% or more Democratic, and exactly 14 being 50% or less. Similarly for the House.

    The whole thing seems fairly Martian.

    (Addendum: I apologize if my comments are taken as offensive by Martian-Americans. It was a poor attempt at humor, and does not reflect my personal experience with People From Mars, with whom I have never had any reason for complaint. I am very sorry if my comments caused personal hurt.)

    by: Grebner @ Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 12:23:58 PM CDT

  10. Violet Avatar
    Violet

    Another Petition
    I was informed recently by a friend that a petition was being circulated to increase the voting age from 18 to 21 years of age. I attempted to track it down, but came up with nothing so I cannot even confirm it exists.
    by: petrolcide @ Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 14:25:46 PM CDT

  11. Violet Avatar
    Violet

    You should feel free to ignore that rumor.
    The voting age was lowered by amendment to the US Constitution. Hardly seems likely that anybody’s going to propose reversing it.
    by: Grebner @ Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 15:06:49 PM CDT

  12. Violet Avatar
    Violet

    It is Brewer
    This petition was actually supposed to be circulated with the Health Care Initiative, but us poor Health Care folks ran out of money.
    It’s a mix of symbolic populist crap — cutting legislative pay feels right, but it only saves the state a few million bucks — and party hackery. It has to be long to include all the provisions.

    I was supposed to be circulating it, but I never bothered reading it. It’s a dozen or so pages of size 8 font, single-spaced, with no margins, printed on 8.5 * 14 in paper.

    The party hackery is a change in the size of the State Senate. The Dems won the popular vote for State Senate by like 10 points last time, but the districts are so gerrymandered that the GOP kept control.

    The current 38 district map is useless if the Senate does not have exactly 38 members, so it would have to be re-drawn. Brewer is betting that with a Democratic Governor, and State House the Dems could get a winnable Senate. I heard Brewer et al. actually analyzed the possible district combinations and picked a new number for the Senate that would be most advantageous to them.

    House and Supreme Court reductions are there so the Senate reduction looks like a legitimate “reduction in government size,” and not a partisan manuever. pay reductions sweeten the deal.

    IIRC there’ also an end to term limits.

    BTW, the proposal can’t redraw Congressional districts.. The Feds gave us 15 in 2000, and 15 we shall keep until 2010. So Brewer’s tactic of changing delegation size won’t work.

    by: DetroitSkeptic @ Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 16:15:13 PM CDT

    1. Violet Avatar
      Violet

      They can’t reduce congressional districts, but they can change them.
      If the petition covers congressional districts it could redraw them. Both Texas and Georgia redrew their congressional districts in 2004 after the GOP gained control of their states.

      “I never did give anybody hell. I just told the truth and they thought it was hell.” — Harry S Truman
      by: Butch Snider @ Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 20:01:56 PM CDT

  13. Violet Avatar
    Violet

    If it was Brewer, wonder why didn’t he alert his foot soldiers
    The Chair and Vice-Chair of the Muskegon Democratic Party have never heard of this petition; the Secretary said he saw a petition like this a couple of weeks ago, but didn’t know who sponsored it or its purpose.

    Walk a mile in the other guy’s shoes. That way, you’re a mile away from him; plus, you have his shoes.
    by: lakeshoremmm @ Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 13:29:35 PM CDT

  14. Violet Avatar
    Violet

    Don’t know, but I keep hearing “Brewer”.
    My original hunch was based mainly on the excessive cuteness of “accidentally” eliminating Taylor’s two henchmen as part of a supposedly neutral restructuring plan. It seemed a lot like trying to put me out of business “accidentally” while supposedly implementing the DNC’s rules for a presidential primary.
    Since then, both Gongwer and MIRS have linked Brewer to it, and I’ve also gotten some back-channel email from people in a position to know. I’ve also heard (in the last three hours) that the drive is still going, and that there’s supposedly money for it. (That is, my source didn’t know if there really IS money, he only knows that insiders claim there is.)

    At this moment, my view is that interesting stuff must be going one, which we will never know about. I think the technical problems the drive faces are immense, but they happen to be the kind that would tend to appear solvable to a non-expert. So the most likely outcomes are that the plug gets pulled quietly, or the petition drive falls short after the expenditure of serious seven-figure money.

    But I think if it gets on the ballot, it just might pass.

    by: Grebner @ Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 14:01:04 PM CDT

  15. Violet Avatar
    Violet

    In Commerce?
    This must be the one that was being circulated when I was grocery shopping a couple of weeks ago, along with another one to allow stem-cell research. I signed the stem-cell petition after confirming it was to allow research, and not a Repub plot to write the stem-cell ban into the constitution. I had some frozen and refrigerated stuff in my groceries, so didn’t have time to read further and took a pass on this one.
    by: Don K @ Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 19:25:20 PM CDT

  16. Violet Avatar
    Violet

    I hope it does get on the ballot. Why should electeds be entitled to better retirement benefits than a rank-and-file government worker?

    by: username @ Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 18:47:27 PM CDT

    1. Violet Avatar
      Violet

      I’d like to see it on the ballot too.
      For one thing, all the forces of evil would be threatened, which would cause them to spend tens of millions of dollars against it. And the forces of (relative) good would answer with several million dollars of their own. It would be good for business. (My business, I mean.)
      It would also distract everybody from all the other campaigns, which seems like a blessing. Voter forums, legal analyses, lawsuits attempting to block it, national news, endless bloviating. And who knows – it might even pass.

      But – I don’t think it’s going to happen. Big problems collecting so many signatures, and very little time to fix them.

      by: Grebner @ Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 19:37:55 PM CDT

  17. Violet Avatar
    Violet

    Petition
    I don’t see a thing in there to object to. This states going to hell in a handbasket and the best place to start is with our bloated politicians. Hope to hear more about it.
    by: jm48202 @ Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 21:01:38 PM CDT

  18. Violet Avatar
    Violet

    Joe Lukasiewicz bills himself as the leader of the Reform Michigan Government Now! ballot proposal
    Dianne Byrum,emerged Thursday as the spokeswoman for the group.
    The measure was endorsed Thursday by Mark Brewer,chairman of the Michigan Democratic Party.

    http://www.mlive.com/elections

    by: username @ Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 21:07:52 PM CDT

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